Comments on MOMENT OF CLARITY: It's Raining Coin

Since I started asking muttmutt to explain his own...

2012-01-27T17:39:45.779-06:00

Since I started asking muttmutt to explain his own interests he himself filled out on his own profile, he instantly got angry and attacked me like a 10 year old throwing a tamper tantrum. A a usual lefty, he has moved along with his tail between his legs.

MuttMutt... One other question. You said you wan...

2012-01-27T08:49:44.394-06:00

MuttMutt...

One other question. You said you want a drastically progressive tax system. What tax bracket are you going to be in? Or is the drastically higher rate reserved only for those who make more money than you?

muttmutt - Sorry MuttMutt, if you clicked on my na...

2012-01-27T08:39:24.040-06:00

muttmutt - Sorry MuttMutt, if you clicked on my name in the original post, it took you to the article and the IRSData. The article also referenced the studies and the corresponding IRS Data. The idea that gov't can continue to use a "Stick" instead of a "Carrot" is what's destroying the country. There's a "Law of Unintended Consequences" and every time the gov't punishes success that success migrates. This is why jobs continue to be exported and why companies continue to re-incorporate overseas. 60 minutes did an episode recently regarding corporate tax havens - you should check it out.

And as far as Socialism, I was born in Russia and legally immigrated to America in the 70s. I fully understand the difference between the "Theory" & "Reality" of Socialism.

http://www.actionamerica.org/taxecon/irsdata.shtml

RE: You're a sad, pathetic, ignorant little pe...

2012-01-26T21:22:41.909-06:00

RE: You're a sad, pathetic, ignorant little person. If you spent less time spitting venom and more time paying attention to people like Dr. Tim, Max, GardenAngel and myself who actually provide evidence to back up our opinions, you might really learn something. But I doubt that that will happen. So I'll be moving along.

Now that is right, you don't post facts you post OPINIONS on a failed socialist idea. But go ahead, move along because obviously you cannot defend a profile your yourself filled out. A profile which lists ones own beliefs and obviously opinions is in itself a document of ones character.

I believe in our founding fathers and their belief in a limited government founded on The
Judeo-Christian heritage, taxes with representation not higher taxes in our current tax system that is full of bureaucracy, loopholes and lobbyists, and respect of our founding fathers and not trying to confuse positive rights which you lefties like to push with natural rights which our founders gave us.

I believe if somebody puts down Lefty Politics, Travel, Economics, Foreign Affairs, Electing Obama (DONE!), Civil Rights, LGBT Rights, Social Justice in their own profile, likes to confuse facts with opinions, has interests in foreign affair yet doesn't see the significance of socialism failing in Europe today yet touts socialism with social justice is an ignorant fool.

Sorry that I pegged you right from the beginning. One that cannot defend their own views which one writes on his/her own profile and instantly attacks the other is proof to what I said you are a lefty. I ask you to defend your positions because your positions greatly differ to what many on here believe. Socialism is a collective big government mentality, and Dr. Tim Nerenz has no where near the belief of big government and higher taxes. Where is your answer to your beliefs and why you even here in a small government minded people. Huffington post web site, a site your beloved Obama loves, would be a great site for you. Their comment section is greatly tailored to big government and tax the rich type of people.

Wow, now I spit venom because you cannot back anyt...

2012-01-26T20:34:41.710-06:00

Wow, now I spit venom because you cannot back anything up. You cannot even back up your own believes. Just like a good little lefty, you attack and vilify when you have no facts. How about you apologize to Dr. Tim Nerenz since you like to belittle him in who he knows and believes.

You want facts, http://www.google.com. I didn't know you depended on me to post every little fact known to man for you because you do not know how to find it yourself.

You have yet to provide any facts other than say you believe higher taxes is the only way to fix our country. Funny how that is what Obama believes. That is how Doyle and the democrats believe here in Wisconsin. How about you Google Greece and see how socialism is working how for them. Then Google Spain and now France. I am assuming if you can find this blog you can definitely find Google especially since I provided the link.

We did learn from your beliefs in the last 8 years of Doyle and seen how it didn't work. I did notice you cannot even defend your own positions which deflects on ones own character. All you did was very quickly attack me and in that you just proved I was right. That is a true form of a socialist, always running on anything but the facts because you cannot use facts since it would prove you wrong.

Keith says "we tell him the facts and he beli...

2012-01-26T20:13:35.021-06:00

Keith says "we tell him the facts and he belittles anything we tell him"

You have provided no facts. None.

"and tell us how he thinks yet he doesn't even know the social justice is key engine which these socialists use. It is a collective and a collective is socialism."

You wouldn't know socialism if it squatted on your face and wriggled.

You're a sad, pathetic, ignorant little person. If you spent less time spitting venom and more time paying attention to people like Dr. Tim, Max, GardenAngel and myself who actually provide evidence to back up our opinions, you might really learn something. But I doubt that that will happen. So I'll be moving along.

Thanks to Dr. Tim, Max, GardenAngel and Ryan_O from whom I've learned things and who I hope have learned a thing or two from me.

These are your interests: Lefty Politics, Travel, ...

2012-01-26T20:07:58.664-06:00

These are your interests: Lefty Politics, Travel, Economics, Foreign Affairs, Electing Obama (DONE!), Civil Rights, LGBT Rights, Social Justice.

I forgot to even add that you believe in Obama! Makes sense with your ill logic in taxes. Explain to me how Warren Buffet hasn't paid taxes since 2002 yet he is touting with his buddy Obama that the rich should pay more. He could write a check any day he wants if he wants to help Americans. It is kind of hard to think he will do that if he cannot seem to pay his own taxes he already owes.

Also Obama killing the pipeline job, Warren Buffet benefits the most because he would lose billions if that pipeline would be completed. Him Obama helps his union friends and now helps a major campaign donor that doesn't pay taxes. I hear no outrage of that from people like you.

Anybody that wants to argue taxes and yet supports electing Obama is truly a interesting fellow.

If you want to win this debate you better start explaining yourself. After all this is your own profile and your own believes and ones own believes is a key to ones standing in life and what and who he supports.

muttmutt, win? I am not in here to win anything bu...

2012-01-26T19:58:52.632-06:00

muttmutt, win? I am not in here to win anything but then again that is your thinking fine. Why don't you start by explaining yourself as a social justice believer since I looked at your profile. Explain to us how your collective mindset is better than us thinking for ourselves.

Ryan O, disagreeing is fine and dandy, but when so...

2012-01-26T19:55:50.356-06:00

Ryan O, disagreeing is fine and dandy, but when someone obviously believes in socialism and social justice and doesn't know anything about himself as a social justice when it is in his own profile, there is no such thing as having a civil discussion with these people, we tell him the facts and he belittles anything we tell him and tell us how he thinks yet he doesn't even know the social justice is key engine which these socialists use. It is a collective and a collective is socialism. Sorry this country is not founded on collectivism. It is founded on the individual. We do not believe everyone has a number, we believe in ourselves. Social Justice and Socialism is a centralized government style thinking with a collective thinking mindset. I know what socialism is but I find it interesting you agree with a guy that thinks progressive movement is the best way, which is higher taxes. There are 2 truths on socialism, 1. Socialism is works as long as there is enough rich people to steal from and 2. always leads to a dictator. Look at WW2 era, Stalin, Hitler etc. History is a fine tool to prove this and ignorance is the biggest tools socialists exploit to further their agenda.

keithh1981: OOOOO, the dreaded "I know you ar...

2012-01-26T19:53:21.060-06:00

keithh1981: OOOOO, the dreaded "I know you are but what am I" defense! Well, you got me. You win.

You lose a debate and think you can end ot by laug...

2012-01-26T19:46:10.466-06:00

You lose a debate and think you can end ot by laughing at yourself. You got some studying up to do and you might want to start with yourself and your own social justice collective thinking.

Max: I didn't ignore it, I was waiting for you...

2012-01-26T19:39:50.852-06:00

Max: I didn't ignore it, I was waiting for you to supply links to the data.

And if capital flight happens because of taxes, then perhaps we should make capital LESS mobile. We can do that, you know.

MuttMutt... I'm sure we could speculate on why...

2012-01-26T19:22:40.920-06:00

MuttMutt... I'm sure we could speculate on why the data is what it is but the bottom line is that the top marginal rate that is often cited is a facade. It's a rate that NO ONE paid because of all the loopholes and deductions. The only way to compare and do a real analysis is to look at effective rates. The effective rate has fallen over the years with the bottom quintiles benefiting far more than the top. Any suggestion to revert to historical rates would mean that the bottom quintiles would suffer disproportionally more. Is this what you're advocating?

In addition, you still neglected to comment on my original post, which shows that the Rich are in fact leaving the country and taking their tax dollars with them. Instead of thanking the rich for shouldering a majority of the tax burden, we as a collective nation, are demonizing them. Capital is mobile and if we continue to demonize the rich, we should be ready to suffer the consequences when they move and take their tax dollars with them.

Keight: I think MuttMutt is correct. You really do...

2012-01-26T19:09:11.009-06:00

Keight: I think MuttMutt is correct. You really don't know what a socialist is or what socialism is. And what part of Progressivism do you not like... the 40 hour work week, child labor laws, civil rights...

When I come and have discussions with Dr. Tim and his followers we like to debate/discuss using facts. We can disagree and often do. But its always civil. And than there are people like you... go cruise the Limbaugh site.

you guys seem to be having fun on your own...but m...

2012-01-26T18:59:09.361-06:00

you guys seem to be having fun on your own...but muttmutt, I have to add just a bitty one, since you served me up a softball with your baseball analogy. I wasn't going to show off, but I actually did spend two and a half days with Dr. Laffer a year or so ago. Over one dinner we did discuss exactly his views on where the optimum tax rates should be, and that's how I know what he thinks on the subject. He also is quite versed in economic history and was a pivotal figure on the tax reforms in the 1970s and 1980s in California, England, and U.S. He remains active, advising states on tax and growth policies. I think we would all agree that loopholes and exceptions must be taken out of the tax code in any reform. Ok, carry on, boys and girls and play nice!

Bloomberg, that bastion of socialist propaganda, p...

2012-01-26T18:39:33.269-06:00

Bloomberg, that bastion of socialist propaganda, polled their most exclusive readers (a $20,000/year subscription), Trotskyites to a man, and found the same thing ordinary American's are saying. The tax system is weighted in favor of the super-rich. (as reported by the Columbia Journalism Review http://bit.ly/y9mfrb)

"And the poll results are a landslide: two-thirds said the low tax rate was “unjustified” versus just 21 percent who said it was okay. Amongst Americans, the numbers were similar: 67-27. Again, these are not exactly populist firebreathers. By even bigger margins they say private equity is beneficial to the economy."

From the actual poll:

"Gerhard Summerer, president of DZ Financial Markets LLC in New York, said the lower rate is nothing more than “welfare for the rich,” saying the “average American citizen” gets no such breaks. “No one is advocating confiscating anyone’s possessions, but the fair taxation of income,” he said."

and

"“There is a large and growing wealth disparity and I think it is unhealthy,” Steve Morton, a director at Natixis Securities in New York who took part in the survey, said in an e-mail. “The lower levels of the pyramid don’t have enough money to buy things and keep the economy going.”"

And the post concludes with this...

"Eighty-five percent say they either fully agree or partially agree that banks need “regulation to prevent them from being too big to fail.” And 72 percent of these what you might call professional gamblers say they think Obama will be re-elected."

:-)

Keithh1981: BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA! That is a...

2012-01-26T18:04:54.610-06:00

Keithh1981: BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA!

That is all...

We're supposed to laugh at clowns, right?

Ryan, lack of facts is amusing since I am the one ...

2012-01-26T17:41:58.169-06:00

Ryan, lack of facts is amusing since I am the one that alerted everyone that muttmutt is a fond believer in progressism and social justice. You want facts how about you look them up on the internet. This is a comment section on a blog not a section where you expect to get facts from a person if you look at his profile is a socialist. But go ahead continue getting your facts from a comment sections where known verifiable socialists are argueing the rich don't pay their fair share however his ignorance is getting old since we had his ilk for 8 years under Doyle and his administration. I think 8the years of the unions getting paid off and racking up a $3.6 billion defit is proof enough you cannot just tax expect paradise!

Max, thanks for the link to the Brookings data on ...

2012-01-26T16:20:59.326-06:00

Max, thanks for the link to the Brookings data on effective tax rates. I wish it went back further than 1979, but it's quite useful.

While your observation "The top quintile saw an effective tax rate drop from 1979 to 2007 of about 8% while the bottom quintile experienced a decrease of 50%." is interesting, the question still remains as to why that might be. One possibility is that with increased income inequality, and the effects of the recession, the "effective" rate includes a larger population on the bottom who pay no tax whatsoever. I don't know, the data don't make that clear.

This TaxVox blog posting (http://taxvox.taxpolicycenter.org/2011/06/24/so-who-should-pay-income-taxes/) explains a couple of reasons why that number may have shrunk:

"...people don’t pay income taxes either because they have no taxable income (almost all of the elderly who don’t pay income tax, for instance), or because they qualify for credits that offset their tax liability. For the people in the second group, increases in tax rates could very well hit them in the wallet – either because they’ll owe net taxes or they’ll receive smaller refunds."

But we do know the folks at the top are making a substantially higher percentage of total national income than they were in 1979 and are paying a lower effective tax rate.

One reason for that is they pay a much lower rate on unearned income.

Sorry, here's a link to the graph. http://www...

2012-01-26T15:59:10.755-06:00

Sorry, here's a link to the graph.

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=456

MuttMutt, I noticed you didn't respond to my c...

2012-01-26T15:58:25.051-06:00

MuttMutt, I noticed you didn't respond to my comments regarding expatriation.

In addition, your graph for top marginal rates is misleading because NOBODY actually paid those rates. There were so many deductions and loopholes that people paid a fraction of the top rate. If you want to make a valid argument please use effective rates, because that's what people actually paid. Check out the effective rates using the link below. As you can see the total effective rate has decreased for all groups with the largest % skewed towards the bottom. The top quintile saw an effective tax rate drop from 1979 to 2007 of about 8% while the bottom quintile experienced a decrease of 50%. Whenever anyone wants to return to historical rates, they need to understand that the poor paid significantly more than they do today. Is that what you're advocating? Should we return all the effective rates to the 70s and really stick it to the poor?

I am enjoying the thread except for Keith. His lac...

2012-01-26T14:46:55.526-06:00

I am enjoying the thread except for Keith. His lack of facts and throwing the socialist word around shows his ignorance. He is probably a bear fan. If you can play with the big boys, resort to name calling.

Muttmutt obviously your profile says you are a pro...

2012-01-26T13:20:29.194-06:00

Muttmutt obviously your profile says you are a progressive (socialist) and believes in social justice aka socialist. Obviously you do not know what a socialist is and you are one! Lenin first dictator of Russia called you right: Useful idiots.

Mitt has paid $3 million in taxes. How much did yo...

2012-01-26T13:16:05.794-06:00

Mitt has paid $3 million in taxes. How much did you pay muttmutt? The rich pay based on how much they make. If you paid $3 million and yet Romney makes more than you I can see how you feel it is unfair.

Muttmutt, you talk about fair like it matters. New...

2012-01-26T13:12:55.879-06:00

Muttmutt, you talk about fair like it matters. Newsflash, life is not fair never was and never will be. Learn the true term of progressive. Social justice you believe in is nothing more than a collective mentality normally called socialism/communism. How is that working out in Europe? Or the social programs bankrupting our country today and the last 100 years. No matter how you look at it, raising taxes on the rich always proved to be fatal to our economy but the only difference between now and the 1960's when we had high taxed is we had jobs. There was so many jobs you could quit your job and walk next door and get another 1.